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more-moderate-than-thou

I want to interrupt my incessant prattling about Beltane to solicit some opinions. Have you noticed how prevalent is the notion that only centrists are reasoned and sane? How often do you hear someone say "I think both parties are nuts. The only reasonable position is the middle one."

I'm gonna call bullshit on that. I think it's intellectually lazy. What people really mean by this is that the only good opinion is one that has been carefully considered, and that's certainly true, but simply adopting a "moderate" or "middle of the road" position isn't the same thing. It's a cheat, and it's no substitute for actually thinking.

I'll also point out (and you knew this was coming) that I think this is a device used more often by the Right these days. "Fair and Balanced," right? The GOP is the voice of the infallible "center" and those crazies on the Left are insufficiently moderate. This is the single most boldly marketed message coming from the Right these days. The pronouncement of their supreme even-handedness.

I've seen a lot of ads on the Metro lately listing the most extreme circumstances under which abortions occur, and asking if abortion rights have "gone to far." That's just the most disingenuous load of crap. Those people aren't concerned that we've "gone to far". They are simply trying a slight of hand to distract the public from their extreme (yes, extreme) agenda in which no woman has the right to an abortion.

OK, I could go on, but I'm beginning to sort of ramble around the issue here.

Anyone wanna argue with me? I'm truly very interested in contradictory opinions (how moderate of me!) because I am still trying to solidify this concept in my mind. And hearing other peoples' thoughts is one way we liberals inform ourselves, ya see.

Comments

translucent_eye
May. 9th, 2005 09:21 pm (UTC)
Well, first and foremost any medical procedure should take some care and concern in making...start there and convince me otherwise.

And the thought that an abortion should be an easy decision that someone should be able to stroll down the street and have at their leisure is exactly why I don't believe I can support free abortions.

Cause we all know its not really free. Someone has to pay for that doctor's schooling, room and board while they are educated. Their licenses, and insurance. Their clinic and its staff, and well their time. So for someone to say that I should be paying for someone's abortion when that someone doesn't consider this a decision they should mull over and that they can have as often they want at the expense of the public...I don't agree.

I suspect that opinion simply ultimately comes out of the belief that sex is bad
And sex isn't bad...but I don't think that saying that someone should be a responsible person when they have sex is bad either. Guys and Girls.

and that women who end up with unwanted pregnancies deserve to suffer
people mull over important decisions all the time. buying a car, buying a house. hell, it seems that there are many people on this here livejournal that will mull over what to have for lunch then they would over having an abortion. I simply cannot agree with that.
fenriss
May. 9th, 2005 11:23 pm (UTC)
hell, it seems that there are many people on this here livejournal that will mull over what to have for lunch then they would over having an abortion.

OK, you know what? That's uncalled for. I am done with this conversation if you're going to start making ad hominem attacks.

I've had an abortion. It was traumatic, but it was NOT a difficult decision, because for me, at that time, it was the only correct decision. I'll thank you not to judge me for not feeling the least bit guilty about it.

I'm honestly really surprised, because you have always come across as thoughtful and considerate before. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me. But if you're going to sit there and tell me (or anyone) how they should feel about a personal decision, I'm gonna call you wrong.

And I'm also gonna call you on it when you set up straw men like: "...but I don't think that saying that someone should be a responsible person when they have sex is bad either." I'm not going to let you get away with implying that my side of the argument is that "irresponsibility is good." You are a very intelligent person. You know that's not what I'm saying, so what gives?

Look, I think of you as better than this. I'm hoping you're just getting emotional here, and that you're not really accusing me and other members of my flist of caring more about a sandwich than a precious unborn child of god, or some shit. I'm going to be really disappointed if I'm wrong.
translucent_eye
May. 10th, 2005 01:58 pm (UTC)
Yes - I agree that this conversation should end because its been taken to a personal, defensive state rather then a discussion of the issues. I was responding to the idea that having an abortion should be a well thought out decision that shouldn't be as easy as someone getting up one morning, strolling to the corner clinic and having an abortion on first visit. Most people would not do that with any other medical decision.

And yes I am informed of the procedure - I have worked in at least two hospitals and the Jones Institute for reproductive health. I've been there for births, and I've been with people after abortions.

And saying that a decision should take some care and concern in making is not saying that you should feel guilty about it.

Just like you should take come care, consideration, concern, research and thought into having a liver transplant - but you would never have accused me of saying someone should feel guilty for having a liver transplant. Please do read what I have wrote.

And on the responsibility point - as I was saying the people pushing "free abortions for all" without a side-by-side message of personal responsibility and education are wrong.
translucent_eye
May. 12th, 2005 07:25 pm (UTC)
Look, I think of you as better than this. I'm hoping you're just getting emotional here, and that you're not really accusing me and other members of my flist of caring more about a sandwich than a precious unborn child of god, or some shit. I'm going to be really disappointed if I'm wrong.

btw - I decided to come back after a day or two and read this, and I realized that one thing was not clear, which is in the quote:

hell, it seems that there are many people on this here livejournal that will mull over what to have for lunch then they would over having an abortion.

I was not talking about YOUR livejournal, but rather livejournal as a whole. I guess it would in fact be my friends list that I would be talking about. Just realize that with this here livejournal you may have thought I was talking specifically about yours.



_blackjack_
May. 9th, 2005 11:47 pm (UTC)
Cause we all know its not really free. Someone has to pay for that doctor's schooling, room and board while they are educated. Their licenses, and insurance. Their clinic and its staff, and well their time. So for someone to say that I should be paying for someone's abortion when that someone doesn't consider this a decision they should mull over and that they can have as often they want at the expense of the public...I don't agree.

Do you feel the same way about someone's getting chemotherapy, or a kidney transplant? Should poor people be likewise be held up for public scutiny in seeking other medical procedures? Should the poor be denied mental-health care because a lot of Americans are suspicious of psychiatry? Should people too "irresponsible" to get preventive care, or to get regular excercise, or eat right, receieve a different standard of care?
translucent_eye
May. 10th, 2005 02:25 pm (UTC)
People are not clammering for free transplants for all - please read the comments. We can have a discussion on capitalism versus socialism, but that is a different discussion with different points. Please read the post and the comments.
_blackjack_
May. 10th, 2005 05:04 pm (UTC)
People are not clammering for free transplants for all

Um, what planet are you on? How about dialysis, then. We DO provide free dialysis to all. It's covered by Medicare for EVERYONE, even if their kidneys went bad because of years of drug abuse.
_blackjack_
May. 9th, 2005 11:59 pm (UTC)
I simply cannot agree with that.

You don't have to agree with it. You just don't get to make the decision for anybody else. You're opinion on how any individual woman makes decisions about her health is irrelevant. Or should be.
translucent_eye
May. 10th, 2005 02:26 pm (UTC)
And this is a discussion of opinions.
_blackjack_
May. 10th, 2005 12:01 am (UTC)
And sex isn't bad...but I don't think that saying that someone should be a responsible person when they have sex is bad either. Guys and Girls.

It's funny, though, that men seem a lot more concerned with making sure WOMEN are the ones who continue to bear the brunt of the consequences. How is that "responsible"?
translucent_eye
May. 10th, 2005 02:28 pm (UTC)
I will agree this isn't responsible. Do note that even in the quoted part is says Guys and Girls
fenriss
May. 10th, 2005 12:18 am (UTC)
when that someone doesn't consider this a decision they should mull over and that they can have as often they want at the expense of the public

And I have to add that this is patently outrageous. As often as they want? Have you really thought about this at all?

No woman goes through the pain, expense and inconveniece of an abortion for sport. It's always a terrible experience. It's just comic when people pull out the old "as often as they want" routine, because that's a dead giveaway that they know nothing about the procedure and how it affects women.

I'll gladly concede the point that it's upsetting, and women should think to themselves "wow, this is going to be upsetting" before walking in. But when you say "as often as they want" you give yourself away. You reveal that you're not talking from a place of wanting to protect women from a bad experience. You are talking from a place of blaming women for doing something bad, which they should at least have the decency to feel guilty for.

Full disclosure: my feeling are hurt and I'm ranting. I'm not interested in hurting you back, but I am feeling backed against the wall, and like I have to defend myself. When you start deacribing the situation in terms like "should be able to stroll down the street and have at their leisure" you have taken this out of the realm of reason dialog and into the realm of fighting.

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